From CC.UMontreal.CA!newsflash.concordia.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!ankh.iia.org!radu Thu Apr 13 14:52:01 EDT 1995 Article: 18213 of soc.culture.romanian Path: CC.UMontreal.CA!newsflash.concordia.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!ankh.iia.org!radu From: email@example.com (Radu Edelstein) Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian Subject: Re: Culpabilizarea nationalismului romanesc (domnului Iordache) Date: 13 Apr 1995 03:03:43 GMT Organization: Internet Online Services Lines: 395 Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: ios.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Even though I avoid responding to long monologues, yours - Mr. Rosca - absolutely deserves it! ;-) It is literally addressed to someone else, but it is practically addressed to Romanians and Romanian Jews alike. Rosca Ioan (roscai@ERE.UMontreal.CA) wrote: : Domnule Iordache, : 1. : La Bucuresti se zvircoleste inca incercarea de rasturnare a retelei : securicomuniste. Very few are those in Romania that worry more about politics than about economics, indeed. : Puterea face tot ce-i sta in putere pentru a imprastia rindurile (si asa : subtiri) ale celor ce incearca sa-i stea in cale. Orice diversiune e bine : venita in acest sens, indiferent de efectul ei asupra destinului tarii. : Orice confruntare intre potentialii opozanti e salutara. In acest sens se : face un apel isteric la istorie, chemata sa despice tabara : anticomunista de azi, dupa liniile animozitatilor precomuniste. The suggestion here (and throughout your posting) is that ONLY the pre-comunist political parties had a line of political thought. You seem to ignore completely those who have new ideas. : Vechile partide sint indemnate sa-si rezolve conturile ACUM , intre : ele, sau cu vechii legionari. Intelectualii de conceptii contradictorii : desemenea. Exact in clipa in care nevoia absoluta de unitate impune : reconcilierea. Si acest truc , din pacate, reuseste. Pina si generatia : tinara, care ar fi fost in drept sa ceara comunistilor satisfactie pentru : prizonieratul abuziv si indobitocitor la care a fost supusa DE LA : NASTERE, isi camufleaza slabiciunea in spatele dezbaterilor : interbelice ... You seem unaware that the major political struggles are about today and tomorrow, and not about what happened half a century ago. Probably two thirds of Romania's population wasn't even born back then. : In acest context sint foarte reticent fata de sugestiile de critica a : spatiului politic si cultural romanesc pe care le faceti in ultimele : articole. Nu consider de loc oportun, sa atacam tocmai acum : credintele politice ale personalitatilor romanesti de odinioara, pentru : ca nu se inscriu in "corectitudinea politica" standardizata ASTAZI ! When and how do YOU consider will be "proper" to point out failures of great Romanian personalities? Remember the cult they made out of comunist leaders? Remember how we were taught in school about how flawless they were? Should young Romanians be educated in the same spirit, for the sake of "continuity"? As for political corectness: many on scr consider it a "passing fashion" and - it seems to me - they do not stop a moment to think and realize that what it advocates is simply not hurting someone else (and YOU may be [and probably are] that someone else, from time to time. Being considerate and understanding is difficult to learn in a competitive world, but let's give this opportunity to the younger generation. Hopefully one day we will be looked upon as some monsterous relics. : In fata incercarii concertate de a compromite radacinile precomuniste : ale Romaniei, pentu a o lasa in vid cultural si politic, nu ne mai : putem permite gratuitati analitice. Or fi avind evreii dureri vechi, : partial neostoite. Dar noi sintem intr-o continuata tragedie a carei : reparatie, nici nu a inceput, nici nu e asigurata . Mi se pare ca de aici : deriva clare prioritati. Again, your look is only to the past. It's like calling on Stefan and Mihai Viteazu to "save us". Romanians want to live their own lives, in these fastest times, and all they're being fed is: "Oh, the good all times". And, for the sake of creating (or recreating) myths, you are ready to accept the bad together with the good, without questioning. Yes, we Jews have old pains. It hurts us every time insensitivity indexes the Holocaust somewhere back in history, while condoning, reviving, and idolizing those that created the atmosphere that made the Holocaust possible. : Faptul ca Vadimii isi revendica pasiunea nationala nu trebuie sa ne : derute pina la a numi pe toti nationalistii Vadimi. Mai ales cind o : astfel de sentinta cade peste trecut. A pune nationalsecuristi si mari : oameni de cultura nationalisti in aceeasi oala mi se pare de netolerat. There are nationalists who are not hating minorities, as well as there are minorities haters who are not necessarily nationalists. By the same token, there are "great nationalist culture people" who had serious human flows. To judge their artistical creations based on their political and social life would be a pitty - to judge their political views based on their artistical creation would be a mistake, as well. : Epitetul "extrema" e atit de usor de agatat la gitul unui om de dreapta, As easy as it is being attached to those far to the left. That's where the word comes from - there will always be some at the EXTREME right and some at the EXTREME left. : incit a ne lasa azi antrenati in jocul "luptei contra extremei drepte" : avind ca parteneri de vigilenta ... pe batrinii activisti, e absolut : stupid. Cit despre vinatoarea de antisemiti in acest context, - nu cred : ca evreii si-ar pune la index personalitatile intr-o situatie analoaga ! : Nu cred ca inteleptii lor ne-ar cere-o nici noua ! De altfel am impresia What do you mean? How many Romanian antisemites do YOU know that the Jews have hunted and caught? : ca situatia noastra actuala, in care singurul cistigator al rafuielilor cu : "extrema dreapta" este puterea comunista de la Bucuresti , ar trebui : explicata evreilor ce sint eventual tentati la astfel de "dezvoltari" : provocatoare. Sint convins ca ar intelege inoportunitatea lor, cursa in : care se arunca cerind ACUM vot de blam asupra personalitatilor : indezirabile lor care intre timp au infruntat SI COMUNISMUL. Si : efectul de antipatie (pe care se sconteaza, si care va fi abil speculat ) : pe care il vor provoca in Romania astfel de cereri de culpabilizare. You're confusing action with reaction. It is not the Jews who have come up with provocations. I don't believe (even though it might be true) that there were any Jews involved in raising a statue to Antonescu. After SUCH a provocation, you believe the Jews should be taught to stay quiet? What political leverage can gain ANY oposition party from associating with the "Maresal"? It's something THAT insensitive that it is difficult for many Jews to understand. As for the antipathy that might be created, telling lies and hiding the truth would hurt more. Teaching the truth about Romanian Jews and their active participation in the Romanian society, together with recognizing the flows of former political and cultural leaders could help aleviate the [still insignificant, among the population at large] antisemitism. If oposition parties don't break away from lies and myths now, when are they supposed to do it? Tell everybody when they get in power: yes, we lied our way to the top? : Instigari iritante de genul celor lansate de "S", nu provin din interesul : armoniei actuale intre romani si evrei. Dind indicatii romanilor cum : sa-si cenzureze cultura printr-o sita noua, care, mai mult sau mai : putin intimplator , are ... aceeasi ochiuri cu a comunistilor, se atita : animozitati depasite. Qui prodest ? Iata ce ma face sa banuiesc : "secu-gestatia" acestor apeluri. Nu pot uita ca, inainte de a se : reorienta catre istorie si nationalism, "S" a debutat printr-o : laborioasa demostrtie a firescului victoriei Frontului in alegeri ... Here, I don't really know what you're talking about (what type of instigations). As for the "Securitate"'s hand in everything, it may be true. Let's not forget that Eastern European policing was being done by the same type of people, for centuries. When the power changed, the secret police was being kept, its methods included. They simply switched to serving a new master. : Mai sec : condamnarea tendintelor de "extrema dreapta" si de : "antisemitism" se loveste de un obstacol, redutabil : multi dintre cei : care trebuie astfel stigmatizati sint dusmani de ieri si de azi ai : comunistilor din Romania ! Ne place sau nu , acesta e adevarul ! Many right-wing leaders with antisemitic views became loyal party members after the war. As for the oportunity of bringing such people to power, don't forget that Hitler was a staunch enemy of the comunists. : Sint oameni care au rezistat eroic comunistilor si care au platit : aceasta cu virf si indesat. Sint printre ei victime si eroi ai natiunii : romane. Ar fi necesar sa le fie recunoscute meritele, si de-abia apoi : vor putea fi criticati pentru vederi prea "la dreapta" sau "antisemite" . : Altfel ne permitem o grosolana nerecunostinta. I agree that for the Romanians it is important to have such "eroi ai natiunii romane" recognized. Their flows, as I have mentioned above, should though be explained and understood, as well. : Si apoi , doua decenii de puscarie si inca doua de umilinta, sint : absolut suficente pentru a spala pacatele, atitea cite vor fi fost... Maybe that can come easy for you to say. Yes, there is compassion I feel as well, for anybody who sufferes. Many members of my family have been murdered back in WWII (even though they were non-combatant civilians) simply because they were Jews, in the middle of antisemitic atmosphere created by some who later suffered, themselves (but not at the hands of Jews who selected them only for their being Romanian). How large is YOUR extended family? : Pe scurt, prima mea observatie privind propunerea de a infiera azi : "vechea extrema dreapta ", sau de a ne "reconsidera" cultura prin : filtrul "antisemitismului", este ca operatiunea este inoportuna, injusta : si nociva. "inoportuna" - you have a shaky point; as for "injusta si nociva" you haven't made any case at all. : 2. : Pe al doilea plan , consider sentinta propusa : nenuantata, : nepertinenta si chiar arbitrara. : Dincolo de consensul privind condamnarea "antisemitismului" si de : realitatea inconturnabila a crimelor odioase ce s-au facut in numele : lui, orice incercare de a defini exact acest termen se loveste de un nor : de ambiguitati si tabuuri. You're giving specific examples of some of the forms of antisemitism in your next paragraph. : Care e plaja credintelor, motivatiilor, atitudinilor si actiunilor : acoperita de termenul "antisemitism" ? Ca pe orice alt subiect, : nuantele sint necesare, exact pentru a nu deforma fondul. Intre : rasistul care-l dispretuieste pe evreu ca "specie", xenofobul care nu-l : doreste in tara sa, nationalistul care nu-l vrea la cirma ei si alarmistul : care-l crede angrenat intr-un complot pentru conducerea lumii, exista : desosebiri de luat in consideratie. : Nu-mi propun nicidecum sa ma lansez in astfel de dizertatii. A ne : infunda din nou in aceasta problematica , mi se pare exact lucrul de : evitat. Am schitat insa un singur aspect pentru a semnala cit de : arbitrara este condamnarea in bloc, fara nuante, fara analize : stiintifice, a tuturor celor ce au exprimat vreodata vederi antisemite, : in istoria culturii si politicii romanesti. You're advocating a block aquital, at the same time. It seems at least hypocritical. : Este inadmisibil sa facem abstractie de contextul in care aceste opinii : s-au format. El trebuie analizat minutios , daca vrem sa emitem : judecati acceptabile. Este nepermis sa-l tratam pe Eminescu si pe altii : ca barbari, pentru reactia lor in fata a ceea ce le-a aparut ca o invazie : nefasta a unei populatii straine. Nobody contests Eminescu's artistical value. Can you come up with examples of his being belitteled AS AN ARTIST by those who accused him of being an antisemite? The "nefasta" invasion of a "foreign population" is something he might have believed in. In his attempt to be a flag bearer for Romanian nationalism, he was attacking, though, Jews whose families have been in Romania for centuries, most probably from before the Eminovici family moved into Romania. :E plin Apusul, AZI, de :mase : emigrante (romani de exemplu) haituite intre tari care NICI MACAR : NU LE PRIMESC. Here you might be trying to make a "subliminal" suggestion that there is an anology to the way the Jews have migrated to Romania. Here you show lack of knowledge of Romanian and Jewish history. In every century (including in today's Romania) the Jews have been INVITED to settle there, for they have frequently been believed to have high potential for contributing to the wealth and well-being of the government and the country. Romanians have not [yet] established such a reputation. The other thing to remember is that the Jews have lost their country and were FORCED to be foreigners wherever they went (and even those who stayed in the land that was theirs 2000 years ago). :Cine ii acuza ? Cum sint neevreii in cautare de : refugiu primiti azi in Izrael ? Here your question is ambiguous and I don't know if you have phrased it as such intently. HOW MANY non-Jews are received in Israel I do not know. As for those that ARE received, they enjoy more freedom and oportunity than the Romanian population had EVER enjoyed IN ROMANIA. Those that left from there did not like the culture, or the frequency of terrorist attacks, but I have not heared of non-Jewish immigrants to Israel who have left it because of persecution. Can you make the distinction? :Cum sa :interpretam faptul ca atunci cind a : fost vorba de eliberare din iadul comunist, numai etnicii neromani au fost : selectati ? De la reactia de exasperare a romanilor : in fata singurului val urias de emigrare din istoria lor contemporana : care a agravat concurenta pentru pozitii bune in tinara societate, pina : la camerele de gazare, e o prapastie pe care nu trebuie s-o : scutcircuiteze nici o retorica ! Iar excesele cu adevarat reprobabile, : pot fi usor delimitate. Do you know how many Jews were left to emigrate after December 89 and how many actually did? Do you realize that there were hundreds of Romanians who left Romania after December 89 for every ONE Jew that left ? What point are you trying to make? : Nu ar trebui sa ne desolidarizam cu atita usurinta de toate actiunile : nationaliste ale inaintasilor nostri facute deseori, din fierbinte : patriotism. Lista intelectualilor romani care au "pacatuit antisemit" : este atit de impozanta, incit ridica doua probleme : : - daca ne putem permite epurarea culturii romane de aceasta : importanta parte a ei : - daca putem presupune ca singura explicatie a acestui fenomen este : o viziune romaneasca barbara, vicioasa, asupra lumii, You are wrong. Many famous Romanians WERE NOT antisemites. Nicolae Iorga, for example, COULD mix nationalism and no xenophobia. Nobody asked you to epurate Romanian culture. In my opinion, even antisemitic artistical creation should continue to be published. It is a moral duty, though, to explain why such creations are wrong. As for antisemitic politics, they have always proven to be populist political schemes and they should be exposed as such, for everybody's understanding. : In ultimele dumneavoastra mesaje pareti a accepta astfel de solutii. : Probabil ca va interpretez gresit, caci pentru prima oara,simt ca nu : va inteleg. Ne putem pune cenusa in cap pentru gesturile noastre, dar : a o face in numele inaintasilor nostri nu e numai absurd, E O : IMPIETATE ! You almost had it here! YOU have a chance of not making the mistakes of those you look up to by recognizing that some of them have failed at a human level. YOU should not be blamed, AS LONG AS you in turn don't make the same mistakes they have. If somebody is to be condemned for something, the guilt should not fall on those who come afterwards. The can be condemned only for what THEY do and it is their option whether to follow on their predecessors' steps or not. : Nu ar trebui sa ne lasam angrenati intr-o inchizitie la comanda si nici : sa zgindarim o rana inca necicatrizata. Iar daca totusi am cauta : concluzii, am fi obligati la mult mai multa profunzime. Yes, why "zgindar" my own wound, when I can "zgindar" the Jew's? : Ar trebui revazute procesele sociale, nationale, culturale si politice : ale timpului. Pentru a nu confunda anti- imigrarea sau : protectionismul nationlist cu anti -semitismul sau rasismul. Look at antisemitic legislation aginst Jews whose families have been living there for generations, at Jews who lived all their lifes there. Had it been simply a reaction against immigration, Romanian Jews would have had equal rights with the other Romanian citizens, or Eminovici would have been subjected to the same legislation as the Jews, right ? : Ar trebui revazuta indelungata dezbatere privind drepturile evreilor : adusi de cele citeva valuri masive de imigrare. : Ar trebui analizata incrincenarea si apoi umilinta pe care fruntasii : romani au acuzat-o, atunci cind Europa a impus masuri de : impamintenire a evreilor noi sositi, sub amenintrea nerecunoasterii : Romaniei. What about the rights of the other Jews, those who WERE NOT "noi sositi"? : Ar trebui revazuta scindarea pe care aceasta problema a produs-o in : societatea romaneasca, dupa 1919. Confruntarea dintre grupul celor : care s-au decis (resemnat) "sa intre in Europa" contra celor care au : continuat sa considere prezenta evreilor ca pe o ocupatie (opinie pe : care nu o discut dar pe care sint silit sa o semnalez). You are not "silit sa o semnalez[i]". You are doing it with a precise purpose, otherwise you could have left it out. You have every right to speak up your mind, so don't hide behind such tricks. : Luptele : fratricide care s-au purtat in jurul acestei divergente nenorocite. : Cortegiul de victime ROMANESTI insingerind memoria si : impotmolindu-ne emnciparea. Go to Temple Coral in Bucharest and read the lists of Jews who died in the war for Romania's independence and in the first world war - for the country they loved and believed they belonged to (many of them volunteers). They also fought for Romania's emancipation. : :Rezultatul funest pe care acest mar al : discordiei l-a avut asupra evolutiei noastre politice. Erorile si : neintelegerile de toate felurile si originile. : Ar trebui asadar de vazut daca nu cumva Romania a ispasit, cu virf si : indesat , pentru slabiciunile sale. This is pure "retorica legionara". As a matter of fact, the movement has gained some ground lately, with support from "camarazi" from Canada. If you're close to them, you'd probably feel quite at home. The phrase used above isn't evan originating in the "miscarea legionara"; it is borrowed from "The Protocols". You can continue to blame it on the Jews, but as long as you keep on looking at [some] bad models from the past and not at the realities of today's world, Romania will continue to have "slabiciunile sale", which, conviniently, could be blamed again on the Jews. : Si numai apoi, am vedea daca e cazul sa ne rusinam, : sa ne cerem : scuze, sa ascundem, sa minimizam, sau sa dezavuam : "antisemitismul" unor ianintasi ai nostri de marca . "Apoi" - after what? You have left your REAL thoughts at the end of the article. Why not have the courage to post them at the begining of an article (such a long one, I might add)? : Pina atunci , eu nu sint dispus sa-i culpabilizez, si sa-mi reneg astfel : nejustificat o parte din radacinile spirituale. Nobody is asking you to. A rational person would try, though, not to make mistakes that even those venerated and loved made. : Si nici sa dau satisfactie securicomunistilor, lansindu-ma in : vinatoarea discutabila de antisemiti pe un front de diversiune. I don't know - here, again, you might have a point. : Pericolul este azi in alta parte. Sa raminem cu fata la el. What about the oportunity for a different future? : : Ioan Rosca Rad From CC.UMontreal.CA!newsflash.concordia.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!tribune.usask.ca! rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas. edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!ankh.iia.org!radu Thu Apr 13 23:53:37 EDT 1995 Article: 18227 of soc.culture.romanian Path: CC.UMontreal.CA!newsflash.concordia.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!tribune.usask.ca! rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas. edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!ankh.iia.org!radu From: email@example.com (Radu Edelstein) Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian Subject: Mr. Ion Rosca is using "retorica legionara" Date: 13 Apr 1995 04:02:29 GMT Organization: Internet Online Services Lines: 80 Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ios.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] The two "letters" of Ion Rosca towards Mr. Iordache and Mr. Cazacu were typical "retorica legionara". Before I will describe what I base my opinion on, I want to mention that those "letters" could have been sent as private mail. The fact that they were posted indicates that the audience intended was a different one. This is only one of the tricks employed. I would also like to mention that back in 1940-1941 most "legionari" were people of doubtless intelectual and artistical capacity, recruited from among students and intellectuals with a nationalistic, antisemitic platform. The movement has gained some momentum in Romania, with several "cuiburi". It is though, still an insignificant political and military power. Ion Rosca's "letters", intelligently written, lack a single element: originality. With the exception of having the knowledge of what happened during the past 50 years, they look as having been transcribed mot-a-mot, from old legion newspapers and pamflets. They do mention: 1. The "suffering", the "unjust historical fortune" of Romania, as a nationalistic ralying point for: 2. Reviving the glorius past, which should be identified with glorious nationalistic figures, which might have been antisemites, but justly so, because: 3. The bad fate of Romania is due to the "treacherous" manipulations performed by the Jews, "foreigners" who caused so much "ROMANIAN blood" to be spilled and who are guilty of the "internal, fratricid fighting" which ("just think for a moment"), would not have been there without the Jews that arrived in "huge immigratory waves" only around the turn of the century (note the lack of historical knowledge he simulates here); 4. Guilty are also the comunists (notice that he does not mention the mass desertion by the legionares who got RCP membership during the first few years after the war), and THE ONLY alternative to these comunists is "something" from the past (that "something" is not difficult to guess); 5. Because of its lack of power, the legion needs to be piggy-backed to power by some other political factions, so now ("ACUM") "what is needed is unity against the current political monopoly" (easy to mistake for a genuine desire to get rid of the current government, which most of us despize); let's not deal with the major flows of some former leaders now (pre-war antisemites), we'll think about it later (ie when the legion will have again political clout, if not political monopoly); 6. For this, we (the legion) need fresh new minds, so let's praise the young generation that knew only comunism, thought it overthrew it but was cheated, and now needs a REAL political option (again suggested), a political option that will let it fulfill its great national destiny. I have comented his letter to Mr Iordache and started doing it in good faith, when I noticed that the language was something I have read before. Take the points that I made above (for their veradicity you can read his posted "letters"), replace the comunist (and neo-comunist) government with the "corrupt monarchy", and you have in your hands a 50 years old legion propaganda pamflet. If he has indeed such an agenda (legion propaganda on Internet) remains to be seen from future postings. The legion had come 50 years ago and is coming back again with many ideas that could indeed be invigorating for a Romanian nation that has seen only deceptions. The only problem is that it promises too much and, if it would get into power again, it will fail again to deliver because: 1. It lacks the understanding of others (cine nu e cu noi...), and as such is against the diversity that Romania needs for progress (I'm talking about the diversity of opinions); 2. It has corrupt leaders, who have at times collaborated with the comunist regime and who, besides the [most probably genuine] nationalistic feelings, also have the desire to be in comand and to spoil riches )it is notorious that 50 years ago, while the lower in ranks were dying for the legion, their leaders were sending them to rob and steal for their own benefit); 3. Because of their intellectual aspirations, they do not have the political and economical knowledge of the real world needed to stabilize Romania on its whells. I hope Mr Rosca will continue to post and try to engage in constructive dialogues, as even of legion ideeas, some might not be that bad.